Curse

JoeKnowMo · Dec 06, 2007, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Signet of Illusions
Summon Ruby Djinn
Ebon Battle Standard of Honor/Courage/Wisdom (depending on rest of team)
Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support
Backfire
Empathy
(Optional: Replace one fo the above two with Glyph of Swiftness if you like)

For e-mgmt:
Auspicious Incantation
Deep Freeze

cellardweller · Dec 07, 2007, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Mesmers do not perform well under that style of play. The Mesmer trick builds are as minimally functional yet forgettable as you think they are. Mesmers simply do not have the brute force, 'mash on this skill' options the other classes do.

Sure they do =)

[skill]Echo[/skill][skill]Arcane echo[/skill][skill]Wastrel's worry[/skill][skill]cry of pain[/skill][skill]auspicious incantation[/skill][skill]Ether nightmare[/skill][skill]signet of corruption[/skill][skill]mantra of inscriptions[/skill]

Overpowered and one dimensional, just like people seem to want

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

a few sticky hexes do reasonably well as well (Cry of Frustration and Arcane Conundrum are the best of them; Backfire and Empathy are efficient damage but on non-essential targets.

You forgot frustration - one of the best single target dps skills in the game, especially against the targets you want to kill like HM caster bosses..

MsMassacre · Dec 07, 2007, 01:16 AM // 01:16

I don't know if my builds counts as "unconditional." It works against anything, but you do have to know your skill types and play the build intelligently. If you want a build that than can do wicked damage just by pressing tab-1-2-3 you're playing the wrong class. Here is what I've been running lately;

9 fast casting, 11 dom, 12 illusion, 8 deadly arts (requires 2 major runes)

Frustration
Clumsiness
Signet of Clumsiness
Signet of Disruption
Power Spike
Cry of Pain
(optional; Rez, Wastrel's Demise, E. Burn, etc.)
Assassin's Promise (e)

The long story short is that we combine Frustration with every damaging interupt in the book for impressive damage and enemy disruption. If you know what you're doing and are on the ball, the damage racks up pretty damn quickly. Let's look at the skills 1 by 1;

1. Frustration. Your main damage dealer. Usually open with it, yes, even on warriors. Every other skill in the bar is there to trigger this hex.
2. Clumsiness. In PvE, almost all enemies attack, so clumsiness is good no matter what you're fighting, tho you do have to be a little more judicious now that it's been nerfed.
3. Signet of Clumsiness. Not spectacular, but another signet helps the e-management. On attacker enemies, you can usually fire this immediately after clumsiness triggers and get the damage.
4. Signet of Disruption. Decent damage, and a generic interupt since your target will already have frustration on them.
5. Power Spike + Frustration = ouch! Remember you can use this on paragon foes now, but only on chants, which is a surprisingly limited selection of their skills.
6. Cry of Pain. Again, since you opened with frustration, this spell acts as both a generic interupt AND an unconditional damage spike.
7. Assassin's Promise. Really should've been called "Mesmer's Promise." This spell helps mesmers with two of their weak spots in PvE (spell recharge and energy) while also being easier to use on a mesmer than any other prof due to fast casting. Using this spell properly does take some skill, but once you get good with it, you'll wonder how you ever lived without it.
8. I like Wastrel's Demise in EotN, where enemies seem to have more full skill bars than other campaigns. Aneurysm is a good choice in certain areas, as is overload. Pick your poison here, but if you opt not to bring a rez, I'd reccomend a cheap unconditional damage skill.

Tips for usage;
1. Always open with frust, unless an enemy is almost dead.
2. Travelling with other interupters only makes this build deadlier.
3. Be conservative with promise. With practice, you'll be able to tag it on almost every foe as they go down. Remember, tis better to Promise late and miss, then to Promise early and have it wear off or be removed.
4. Remember, dervs and sins use spells AND attacks! They are like a mesmer's dream opponent; So many ways to inflict suffering!

azzer20 · Dec 07, 2007, 01:52 AM // 01:52

first of a fire ele does PATHETIC damage vs high level monsters, now mesmer use the ability to "ignore armor" wich is VERY beneficail,

I usually run Backfire, Empathy, Drain/inspired enchantmens, Revealed/inspired/Shatter hex,Diversion. Hex Eater Vortex for hex heavy areas. if it's a non heavy area i try to use some useless elites Å^_^ Remember a mesmer is strong even without elites, i sometimes bring leech signet/cry of frustration for Troll Unguent and the likes, oh yeah last skill is always res chant (hard mode rebirth)

Now the updates has been monks won't kill themself with backfire, see some might find this useless BUT a monk who doesn't heal is not worth anytihng, Diversion is THE best shut down skill in PvE because a monster just keeps throwing things

I rarely use Illusion as there are not as good skills as in the domination magicline,

hope it helps, i have Illusion builds if you want but to tired to write them down now

Moonlit Azure · Dec 07, 2007, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Mesmers are a sort of a jack of all trades, but a master at none.

azzer20 · Dec 07, 2007, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Mesmers are the master of shutdown, wich is more viable in PvP though, but still no onw can shutdowna boss as a mesmer can, Diversion and Wastrel's Worry is just 2 skills that will own most bosses

Chael · Dec 07, 2007, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Not to go off-topic, but while we're speaking of Frustration would it be of any merit when used in conjunction with Lightning Javelin?

Moloch Vein · Dec 07, 2007, 08:52 AM // 08:52

No. Javelin only interrupts an attacking foe and Frustration only deals damage upon spell interruption.

Chael · Dec 07, 2007, 09:03 AM // 09:03

According to the spell description yes, but not so in-game.

Coloneh · Dec 08, 2007, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by azzer20

Mesmers are the master of shutdown, wich is more viable in PvP though, but still no onw can shutdowna boss as a mesmer can, Diversion and Wastrel's Worry is just 2 skills that will own most bosses

[skill]broad head arrow[/skill] says hello

Quote:

Originally Posted by azzer20

first of a fire ele does PATHETIC damage vs high level monsters, now mesmer use the ability to "ignore armor" wich is VERY beneficail,

lol?

Quote:

Originally Posted by azzer20

I usually run Backfire, Empathy, Drain/inspired enchantmens, Revealed/inspired/Shatter hex,Diversion. Hex Eater Vortex for hex heavy areas. if it's a non heavy area i try to use some useless elites Å^_^ Remember a mesmer is strong even without elites, i sometimes bring leech signet/cry of frustration for Troll Unguent and the likes, oh yeah last skill is always res chant (hard mode rebirth)

[skill]Spiteful Spirit[/skill] > you

edit: itsw 2:45 AM, the skill cards arent working for some reason, and i dont give a shit
edit2:now they are

Clarissa F · Dec 08, 2007, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Mmmmmm....BHA. that and 3 rangers had my old guild trying to own Kuunavang in under 3 minutes(got to 4:32).

If we were in the pre-Nightfall land, you could take a basic Domination build, throw in any elite, and own in most areas. Nightfall, with its high-level mobs,and the nerf bat taken to the Mesmer to bring it down from godly in pvp, with wimped-out results in pve, have just made it easier to take an ele or necro along for damage, and rangers for interrupts.

As to Avarre.....personally, I think he and Coloneh have done a good job in laying out why a mesmer is weak in the pve game: their primary attribute is crap. You want to do with a Mesmer what it was never meant to do. It was never meant to be a big DPS damage dealer. It was meant to put pressure on/disrupt the other team so your team could do its job better.

If you want "leet DPS", get an ele or curses necro. Saying you won't listen to an opinion just because of the name attached shows your ignorance, as does this thread.

Chthon · Dec 08, 2007, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarissa F

If you want "leet DPS", get an ele or curses necro.

I don't need "leet DPS" per se. I'd settle for a mesmer that does any worthwhile role as well as other classes. Interruption, melee shutdown, active protection, passive protection, healing, etc. are all on the table. Just pick any task worth doing, and do it better than other classes. I don't care which one. You don't even have to do it in one-all-purpose build. Just pick a broad enough array of different conditionally-useful tasks that one of them is always useful, and supply a set of specialized builds so that each one accomplishes one of those tasks as effectively as other classes could.

Quote:

Saying you won't listen to an opinion just because of the name attached shows your ignorance, as does this thread.

Whoa, slow down there. A little less flaming please. I never said that I will not listen to Avarre's opinion. Sometimes he is very, very insightful. In fact, if you had actually read my post, you would have seen that I agree with him on this issue. (At least I have a very strong suspicion that he is correct.) What I did say is that I will not automatically and uncritically accept Avarre's opinion as correct simply because Avarre said it. Saying "Avarre says X" is no more convincing to me than simply saying "X." Nor, for that matter, is it any less convincing either. Can you see the difference between refusing to listen to someone's opinion and refusing to accept that someone's opinion is inherently authoritative?

As for this thread showing my ignorance. Yes, yes it does. That's the whole point. I was totally ignorant of a way to make a mesmer anything other than a sub-optimal way to spend a space in the party, under any circumstances. And I was willing to pay 10k for someone to remedy my ignorance. Thanks to this thread, I have learned how to make a mesmer an optimal choice in one particular circumstance, and I've seen a couple promising ideas about making them worthwhile on a general basis. I can consider that progress.

I think I can also admit that I was ignorant in two other ways: First, I was ignorant of how upset and defensive some people would get if I began from the hypothesis (which is also Avarre's hypothesis) that mesmers are simply sub-optimal in PvE and asked them to disprove it. Second, I was also naive in failing to realize that putting a reward on a "good" build meant implicitly telling everyone who didn't win that their build was "bad." I've been trying to backpeddle away from the "good" terminology and be more explicit that my standard is pegged to outperforming other classes alone and is not some sort of intrinsic value judgment. Still, I think I probably managed to hurt some feelings that way. In both these respects, too, I am now less ignorant than I was.

Ensign · Dec 09, 2007, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

You forgot frustration

I typoed Frustration. Unless you believe I honestly thought that Cry of Frustration was not only an interrupt but a hex as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

First, I was ignorant of how upset and defensive some people would get if I began from the hypothesis (which is also Avarre's hypothesis) that mesmers are simply sub-optimal in PvE and asked them to disprove it. Second, I was also naive in failing to realize that putting a reward on a "good" build meant implicitly telling everyone who didn't win that their build was "bad."

Welcome to PvE forums, where everyone is a winner, every idea is a good one, and anyone who says otherwise is a disrespectful, ignorant asshole. Remember this is guru, where Paragons are bad, Mesmers are amazing, and these opinions are backed up with zeal not evidence.

upier · Dec 09, 2007, 08:03 AM // 08:03

The best thing a mesmer can do would be:
[skill]Echo[/skill] [skill]Blackout[/skill]

Too bad that this insanity isn't needed ...

LightningHell · Dec 09, 2007, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarissa F

As to Avarre.....personally, I think he and Coloneh have done a good job in laying out why a mesmer is weak in the pve game: their primary attribute is crap. You want to do with a Mesmer what it was never meant to do. It was never meant to be a big DPS damage dealer. It was meant to put pressure on/disrupt the other team so your team could do its job better.

The problem with Mesmers probably is the inefficiency of shutdown in PvE, not its primary attribute being bad.

Clarissa F · Dec 09, 2007, 03:35 PM // 15:35

To the OP: sorry if I veered into flame territory. I got a little acidic, there. I should sometimes wait a few minutes before posting.

Lightning, I agree, there is a problem when a ranger can shut down better than a mesmer. Thing is, it ties into the fact that Fast Casting kinda stinks compared to other primaries, in it gives no great benefit like, for example, Soul Reaping, Energy Storage, or even Expertise. If most of your best skills/elites take 10-20 seconds to recharge, doesn't that affect your interrupting cast? Mesmers shouldn't have to waste an elite(MoR) to make them a better interruptor. A buff to FC would fix this. Say, for a 20-sec recharging skill, you get a second taken off for every 2-3 points in FC? Also, if a skill interrupts, a 2 second cast time is assinine. I mean, anticipation is one thing, but that kind of precognition belongs to Nostradomus.

sixofone · Dec 11, 2007, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by MsMassacre

I don't know if my builds counts as "unconditional." It works against anything, but you do have to know your skill types and play the build intelligently. If you want a build that than can do wicked damage just by pressing tab-1-2-3 you're playing the wrong class. Here is what I've been running lately;

9 fast casting, 11 dom, 12 illusion, 8 deadly arts (requires 2 major runes)

Frustration
Clumsiness
Signet of Clumsiness
Signet of Disruption
Power Spike
Cry of Pain
(optional; Rez, Wastrel's Demise, E. Burn, etc.)
Assassin's Promise (e)

The long story short is that we combine Frustration with every damaging interupt in the book for impressive damage and enemy disruption. If you know what you're doing and are on the ball, the damage racks up pretty damn quickly. Let's look at the skills 1 by 1;

1. Frustration. Your main damage dealer. Usually open with it, yes, even on warriors. Every other skill in the bar is there to trigger this hex.
2. Clumsiness. In PvE, almost all enemies attack, so clumsiness is good no matter what you're fighting, tho you do have to be a little more judicious now that it's been nerfed.
3. Signet of Clumsiness. Not spectacular, but another signet helps the e-management. On attacker enemies, you can usually fire this immediately after clumsiness triggers and get the damage.
4. Signet of Disruption. Decent damage, and a generic interupt since your target will already have frustration on them.
5. Power Spike + Frustration = ouch! Remember you can use this on paragon foes now, but only on chants, which is a surprisingly limited selection of their skills.
6. Cry of Pain. Again, since you opened with frustration, this spell acts as both a generic interupt AND an unconditional damage spike.
7. Assassin's Promise. Really should've been called "Mesmer's Promise." This spell helps mesmers with two of their weak spots in PvE (spell recharge and energy) while also being easier to use on a mesmer than any other prof due to fast casting. Using this spell properly does take some skill, but once you get good with it, you'll wonder how you ever lived without it.
8. I like Wastrel's Demise in EotN, where enemies seem to have more full skill bars than other campaigns. Aneurysm is a good choice in certain areas, as is overload. Pick your poison here, but if you opt not to bring a rez, I'd reccomend a cheap unconditional damage skill.

Tips for usage;
1. Always open with frust, unless an enemy is almost dead.
2. Travelling with other interupters only makes this build deadlier.
3. Be conservative with promise. With practice, you'll be able to tag it on almost every foe as they go down. Remember, tis better to Promise late and miss, then to Promise early and have it wear off or be removed.
4. Remember, dervs and sins use spells AND attacks! They are like a mesmer's dream opponent; So many ways to inflict suffering!

Thank you! Great post! Very informative and well thought out. May have to think about taking a sin secondary!

Chthon · Dec 12, 2007, 07:47 PM // 19:47

An update:

So I dragged my butt through Prophecies, capped Fevered Dreams, and began testing some of the Fevered Dream suggestions.

Borrowing from Estic, Painbringer, and Moloch, I cobbled together:
[skill]Fevered Dreams[/skill]

[skill]accumulated pain[/skill]

[skill]steam[/skill][skill]deep freeze[/skill][skill]glyph of lesser energy[/skill]

This build had some very immediate problems.

First and foremost, it had severe energy problems. It worked well for a battle or two, then just bottomed out. Not casting deep freeze at all helped a little, but it was still too pricey.
Shrinking armor was nearly a wasted skillslot. Rarely did a target survive long enough for the cracked armor to trigger, and finding one got harder and harder as fights progressed and high-hp targets became rarer. One solution would be to add shatter/drain delusions, but that means paying 10e, and 2 skillslots, and double cast time to get cracked armor, which I didn't find really worth it.
Accumulated pain suffered a similar timing problem. With a 2-curse windup required, my target would often die before I could land the deep wound. This problem also got much worse as fights progressed.
The glyph+steam combo had the same problem as accumulated pain, to a slightly lesser degree. Sometimes, especially late in a fight, my target would die before steam landed. More often, the combo was too unwieldy to deliver blind at the tactically optimal moment. I also didn't care for the conflict between the two glyphs.

So I made some revisions:

Removed deep freeze.
Compressed both shrinking armor and accumulated pain into "Finish Him!" Now, instead of viable targets getting harder and harder to find as the battle progresses, they get easier and easier. And, the combo is accelerated greatly, as the shout can be performed during Fevered Dreams' aftercast if necessary. I'm not really finding the <50% restriction as bothersome as I expected, mainly because I'm not likely to be swapping off to a new target during deep wound and cracked armor's durations if my current target is still healthy. I definitely need to grind some more Norn points though
Compressed glyph+steam into blinding flash. 5e more expensive, but reliably fast. Does a much better job of making sure the blind is delivered before the target dies and/or at the tactically opportune moment.
Added enervating charge for weakness.
Added power drain for more energy management.
Added power return for quick-recharging interruption.

This build was reasonably effective. It's basically a great big off button for enemy melee damage; the AoE deep wound/cracked provides surprising killing power; and a couple of interrupts don't hurt. Alas, this build too suffers from energy problems.

So more revisions:

Changed Power Return for Leech Signet.
Changed Enervating Charge for Summon Mursaat. Instead of paying 10e for one enervating charge, I'm paying 10e for one Mursaat and he pays for Enervating Charge for me. This also accelerates delivery, since the Mursaat can be precast before a fight and can cast Enervating Charge while I'm doing something else. Downsides are that the Mursaat is fragile, and not always reliable in casting Enervating Charge when and where I want it. I'm still debating whether to keep this change.

So, right now, I've got:
[skill]Fevered Dreams[/skill][skill]blinding flash[/skill]

[skill]Power Drain[/skill][skill]Leech Signet[/skill][skill]glyph of lesser energy[/skill]

I'm relatively happy with this build. This finally gets the energy problems under control. And it's quite effective. The AoE melee shutdown seems to rival a warder or curse necro; the killing power is surprisingly high, if wholly indirect; and it's got a small bit of caster shutdown. Questions that remain are:

Revert the mursaat to enervating charge?
Swap weakness out for technobabble/arcane conundrum against caster-heavy mobs?
Swap weakness and/or leech signet for hex eater sig/inspired hex against hex-heavy mobs?
Is there anything better than Power Drain + Leech Signet to fill their energy management role? (Auspicious is nice, but what exactly would I use it on and not regret the added recharge? Air attunement?)
And of course the big one: Is this build doing anything a E/Me couldn't do better with a deeper energy pool?

In regards to the last question, I can think of two ways in which the Me/E is arguably better:
1) The 2 sec cast on fevered dreams is the biggest bottleneck in the build, and Faster Casting helps with that.
2) Since this build needs 3 non-primary attributes (unless the E/Me can eliminate the need for Inspiration), and the E/Me is one rune shorter than the Me/E in those attributes, there's not many points available for E-Storage, making it less attractive.

If anyone has a mesmer and ele in a position to run a comparison, please take them for a spin. (My ele hasn't touched EotN yet.) Or, if anyone has a way to make the E/Me run without points in Inspiration, speak up and send this build to the fail bin.

Liquid Wood · Dec 12, 2007, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Being a full blooded mesmer it really pains me too see a lot of these builds. I have been very successful with the following build.

Illusion 16
Inspiration 10
Fast Casting 9

Glyph of lesser energy
Fragility
Immolate
Ether Feast / leech sig or drain enchantment (if you feel safe w/ ur monk)
Phantom Pain/ Shrinking Armor ( which ever you prefer)
Conjure Phantasm
Clumsiness
Ineptitude (e)

Now this may seem a bit old hat but it really works... Your always doing something, meaning your not generally waiting for skills to recharge or energy to regen. Not only does this work good by yourself seeing as with Ineptitude, clumsiness, fragility and immolate your doing like just under 300 raw damage. Not to mention the major degen spamming with conjure phantasm and Phantom Pain. Clumsiness is also very spammable and it does 97 damage to whoever is attacking, which in PvE is everybody lol. Also Fragility works great with any sin in your party since they give major conditions. Wnayway tell me what you think or if I really need to explain any more...

Rexion · Dec 12, 2007, 10:56 PM // 22:56

It's sad how Mesmers went from being crap, to being AMAZING, to being "oh a mesmer, yay for a slot filled". It's very sad indeed.

What is really sad are the people that still play the game and have decided that a Mesmer is a WORTHLESS peice of junk and shouldn't be allowed into PvE. (I'm not one of them, but I've argued for mesmers many times with these people).

Welcome to the new GW, lets hope they get buffed. That will be one Christmas Miracle!!